TQ White II

Though I still beg for any conservatives around here to actually engage the conversation, it is fun to run into a tenacious opponent, even if the opposition is expressed entirely in bullet points cribbed from some combination of Fox News and some blog called "Sultan Knish" (which immediately discredits itself by referring to Obama's socialism). 

Anyway, I have re-read this thing several times. I dream of finding a conservative that will read my responses and actually respond to them directly. In my opening counterpoint, I reply with four or five actual claims. Things that look at facts and make conclusions. I would love it if this person had said, "Fracking isn't a problem for the water because..." and made an argument. Instead, it's 'taxes are too high' and it's as if I never wrote a word.

Of course, it also puts me a little beyond sanity to hear another person who is economically free telling the rest of us to just buck up and take advantage of all that freedom out there – because getting a new job is as easy as snapping your fingers, and figuring out what bank isn't screwing you is a matter of just asking the knowledge fairy.

And don't get me started about "freedom of religion". I was kind of happy with the Buddhist comparison though. 

Let me know what I should have done better.

tqii

THE DISCUSSION 

 Point

I don't usually comment on politics, but when it is thrown out there....Romney has a history of turning around bungled businesses, olympics and states....and what is Obama's plan and why hasn't he started it? Via Sultan Knish blog: The real issue at stake here is whether the working class will end up being squeezed out by the government class. It's an issue that affects the rich, poor and middle class alike, and the Republicans are coming dangerously close to articulating it in between applause breaks. The Democrats would like to avoid this line of conservation as much as possible, because once the debate is fully underway, Americans will start assessing their individual economic stakes in the fight, instead of assuming that their economic interest is joined at the hip to their racial identity, gender or choice of bed partners.

But that's not true. You haven't been impeded at all by the government. Neither have I or anyone I know. If you are having trouble in your life right now, it's because a corporation is screwing you. Whether it's fracking your water supply, charging you heinous fees at the bank, foreclosing your mortgage without documentation, or paying too much at the gas station – or ten million other things.

Your interaction with the government? I haven't had one. Not one. Freedoms lost? None (except for being able to get a job without a drug test, credit check or having them examine my Facebook for anti-corporate ranting – more corporate fun).

Romney is a competent guy. However, he's also a pleaser. He went from being emphatically pro-choice and progressive, to claiming to be a "severe conservative", to supporting a personhood platform in his party. 

How did this happen? The Mormons didn't change their policy. His parents didn't change their policy. No, he changed his mind to suit those who could offer him advantage, who could help him get power.

Yes, he has had good accomplishments. But he has no moral core. He will do or say *anything* and is doing so right now. When he gets into office, he will be reliant on the party base for his power. They have already voted for horrible anti-women rape redefinitions, gay-hating laws, and many other awful things. 

Can you imagine that the 'Pleaser' will be able to resist them when he is in office.

And for good measure, everyone that has tried to do the arithmetic on his economic plan has found that it will balloon the deficit.

How about giving almost 50% of our income to the government? That is a bit of an intrusion. And yes, we pay that much on our income. No, corporations are not "screwing me", but providing millions of jobs and investment opportunities to Americans. With capitalism you have the freedom to change banks to those that offer the most competitive pricing, with government you have no freedom of choice but to succumb to what they offer. You don't have to work for a company that insists on drug tests, credit checks and facebook snooping. That is called freedom! I think Romney's moral core is rock solid. And as far as those horrible anti-woman policies....they all have to do with providing federal funding for those issues. I can't imagine forcing a person who religously opposes abortion to fund them! Now, really, talking about ballooning deficits, it would be quit difficult to top what is happening now!

Never mind, Amy. I guess you're rich. You're on their side. The rest of us don't have all those choices. Most of us have to work for whomever will give us a job and whatever business is within driving distance of our house. 

If you think insurance regulation should be subject to everyone's religious preferences, you have no clue about the meaning of either religious freedom or running a society. 

Of course, like most conservatives, your idea of religious freedom is self-serving. You offer me no opportunity to avoid paying for death penalties or wars that violate my religion.

I just beg you, please don't vote. You're not qualified.

Class envy. Are we tired of it yet? And what side am I on exactly? Success is something to be proud of and what sort of choices do I have that you don't have? Who do you think we work for? Imagine this, we work for someone who has given us a job and within driving distance of our house! Religious freedom is not having government ordering the catholic church to provide a service they find not compatible with their belief. I do understand religious freedom and no, my idea of religious freedom is not self serving because I am not religious! You do not need to fight in wars if it against your religion and you can exercise your freedom to vote to have your voice heard if you do not like an unjust war or the death penalty. You can move to states that do not have the death penalty. There are choices here. Are they easy? No, but they are there for someone who truly wants to exercise them. I do apologize for putting you over the edge, but I am also tired of feeling ashamed for success through a lot of hard work (and we did build our success without Obama's help and we did pay for the roads and society through our very high taxes) I am sick of victimhood, class envy and a sluggish non-recovering economy. For your own benefit, try voting for Mitt to open business opportunities ......then you can get out from under your oppressive employer.

Mitt wants to blow the deficit out of the water. No one is telling the Catholic Church they have to do anything. They are telling insurance companies have to include contraception in their policies because the science (Is that part of your universe) says that it's essential to a healthy life.

I am *required* to pay for wars. Paying for abortions is no different. In fact, wars kill actual people, not clumps of cells. There's no reason you shouldn't have to join me in paying for things we don't like. That's what society is about - compromise.

Nobody is criticizing your success. I am criticizing your stinginess. If you are paying over fifty percent (and I'm guessing that you are including property tax on a *huge* house to get that far), then you are spending a *lot* more money on yourself that I am and ridiculous amounts more than the average person.

This country has a huge deficit that you think is important. You probably have a couple of nice vacations each year yet you want to raise the taxes on people like me who haven't been on an actual vacation in years. You want Mitt to implement his tax plan that will either explode the deficit or pull $80 billion bucks out of the budget that might have gone for infrastructure, schools or other meaningful support.

You want this so you can afford expensive cars, fancy vacations, and a lush life. While the deficit burns.

Romney is a plutocrat and so are you.

Catholic religion doesn't believe in birth control. Forcing Catholic institutions to provide health insurance that covers birth control sounds like religious repression to me. One of the few constitutional federal powers is to protect our country. Now you may have a difference of opinion as to just what wars we fight to keep our country safe, so I would suggest voting for persons who do not want our country to be the world's cop. And that might just include preventing genocides and getting rid of rogue dictators! And when does a human being become "human". I am glad you know that answer, for the rest of us it is an emotional struggle. How do you know I am stingy? No, I don't live in a huge house. How do you know how much money I spend? Why haven't you been on a vacation in years? That employer of yours is horrendous! Ever think of changing jobs or striking out on your own? Mitts plan wants to grow the economy, which means more tax revenue. You see, simple economics: economic growth is not a zero sum game, the pie can grow, my success did not prevent you from success, we can all become better off. The pizza pie grows....you see? I don't know who you are, but to be honest, you seem rather hateful and jealous. Glad you are not my friend. And on that note, I will no longer respond to you. Have a good day!

Good, that gives me the last word.

Buddhists don't believe in eating meat. Does that mean the government should stop including meat in government cafeterias? Moslems and Mormons believe alcohol is evil. Should they be forced to grant tax breaks to synagogues that serve wine on Friday nights?

Every religion has moral prejudices. You seem to want them to be enforced over all of us. Dumb.

I'll tell you when a human being becomes human. When its mother says it does. The idea that you think that *you* should decide what kind of surgery a woman has, what sort of probes, tools or other devices she chooses to put into her vagina represents the grim slavery that people who claim to pay 50% in tax usually want to impose on others. It's none of your business when a life becomes a life so stop struggling. Nobody is asking you to have an abortion.

My employer is horrendous and I am one of the lucky ones. There are a lot of uneducated people out there who are barely able to get a job. Those people don't get sick days. They get fired if their child gets sick. They are screwed by corporations left and right while people like you say, "Just get another job." It would be funny to remark at how completely out of touch you are in your privilege if there weren't real people being screwed brutally every day by arrogance.

Mitt's economic plan is both incomplete and a disaster. The Tax Policy Foundation, a non-partisan think-tank often cited by Republicans, says that, even with incredibly favorable assumptions, it will take at least $86 billion from middle class and poor people. This will cause a huge recession. You don't know what you are talking about when you say it will increase revenue.

I'm not hateful or jealous. I revel in the success of decent people, people who understand that, if they are able to feed their family and pay their rent after paying 50% in taxes, that they are lucky people enjoying the best this country has to offer. People who are glad to contribute to our society.

I love people who realize that being rich gives them an institutional advantage that requires them to treat others generously, who realize that paying taxes is a way of supporting our society and helping people.

What I hate is glib people who quote right-wing cliches, who casually talk about the enslavement of women, and accept silly premises because the tax policy would work in their favor. I hate greed and narrow-mindedness. I hate people who don't know facts but still assert opinions.

That's why you see anger in my tone.

And that last word is what really counts.....I concede you are totally right. I am a right winger who clings to my religion and did I mention guns? I hate immigrants, women's reproductive freedom, I am racist, I am selfish, I live in a mansion, spend tons of money, go on extravagant vacations, laugh at the poor, spit at the downtrodden, insist I should pay no taxes, so stupid that I can't fathom your enlightened way, I am lucky to have this income just fall in my lap, I am glib (that is true I admit when dealing with ideologues and name callers-bad habit of mine), I don't understand the all powerful and benevolent big government, I want to enslave women (even though being a "Julia" seems kind of like enslavement to me). Oh, yes, I know no facts, but insert my opinion. To tell you the truth I am kind of beginning to feel sorry for you. There are issues to be discussed, no need to sling mud. I hope you have good friends to sit down with a nice glass of wine and discuss life. I do love life! I am forever grateful to this beautiful country and the wonderful opportunities it has given me and my family. I am thankful for great parents and family who taught hard work, dedication, kindness and forgiveness. Call me an idiot-I don't care!